Clearance Delivery Tips

Brad Littlejohn

  • Members
  • 100
    • View Profile
Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 06:48:05 PM »
Jonah,

It really isn't pet peeves that is the crux of the debate, but more about the ambiguities left after someone gives a clearance. Take your last clearance, for example:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via radar vectors savanah, AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]

What happens if communications is lost? No SID to follow any lost comms procedures, and all that the pilot knows is once airborne, he is radar vectors savannah'. What does he do there? Like mentioned above, there is nothing to stop the aircraft from making a 180 back into oncoming arrivals on final while waiting for that first radar vector.

'Departure on' is definitely not proper phraseology:

Quote
3-9-3.a.1
Issue the appropriate departure control frequency and beacon code. The departure control frequency may be omitted if a SID has been or will be assigned and the departure control frequency is published on the SID.
PHRASEOLOGY: DEPARTURE FREQUENCY (frequency), SQUAWK (code).

Personally, I'd rather have it right the first time, than have to go back and correct how many things were done wrong. Saves both the student and me a lot of heartburn.

BL.

Harold Rutila

  • Members
  • 686
    • View Profile
Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 09:09:43 PM »
Jonah, -- and I mean this in a non-disrespectful but matter-of-factual way -- I'm not entirely sure that you're whole thing about "not getting our panties in a wad" is 100% valid, because you cite two phraseology references that you don't seem to particularly care much about, but then you posted an incorrect claim about "as filed" and post a clearance delivery with several errors. As mentors and instructors (I was a mentor, instructor, and training administrator for a few years before changing ARTCCs), we should really try to teach 100% by the book (either the 7110.65 or the real-world facility adaptions of it). And I understand that what you typed is not necessarily what is always taught or said over VATSIM frequencies, but in the interest of keeping these tips correct for students who may utilize them, I changed the clearances to comply with what is published in the .65. My intention is, again, not to undermine anything you said, but to make sure what is said to students is as correct as we can make it.

Quote
Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, Orlando Clearance Delivery, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l Airport; via the McCoy Niner Departure, Savanah Transition, THEN AS FILED, maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10 one-zero minutes after departure. Departure frequency 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, Orlando Clearance Delivery, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l Airport via radar vectors to Savanah, THEN AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10 one-zero minutes after departure. Departure frequency 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]

There isn't a mention of saying something like "...radar vectors to XXX, as filed," but there is a clear difference among examples when the 7110.65S indicates to use "then as filed" versus "as filed." It seems as if when any part of the route is read, it is followed by "then as filed." Otherwise routes are simply said "as filed" when no SID is assigned. I've never heard a controller issue a clearance that states "radar vectors to XXX, as filed." Logically it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because nobody "files" for radar vectors. Additionally it can cause problems if the controller states the wrong "radar vectors to XXX" navaid and follows with "as filed." "Then as filed" implies a continuation of a route, but it is not used to restate a route or confirm that what a controller just said ("radar vectors to...") was filed in a flight plan. I could go on for days, because clearly I'm a bit obsessed with this stuff, but really this is the only thing in the air. The rest of the points made are pretty solid.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:15:44 PM by Harold Rutila »

Harold Rutila

  • Members
  • 686
    • View Profile
Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 09:15:22 PM »
Oh, whoops. Brad and I have already covered the heading-in-clearance debate, and of course, I forgot what he had already said before I basically restated everything I said before. I skipped right to the latest posts and went from there. Sorry, Brad! Edited that part out as it's been covered already.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:16:05 PM by Harold Rutila »

Michael Hodge Jr

  • Members
  • 333
    • View Profile
    • http://training.vatusa.net
Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 11:54:56 PM »
I enjoy the conversation created here, and if anyone has any other "atc tips" please post in a new topic so we can get these up.

As for the phraseology/procedure issue, my stance has always been this:

If we are going to teach it, we need to teach it right.

When I first released the S1 guide for the Training Resource Center, You should've seen all the corrections I had to make just to the clearance delivery section; just to the phraseology aspect of it. Here I was thinking that I was a pretty decent controller, and I was messing up simple clearance delivery.

Truth be told, no one ever took the time to teach me correctly, and when I thought about it, I thought about all the students who I have trained who have not been taught correctly, and realized that it's a vicious cycle. At some point in the time, the cycle must break. Now I'm not saying that I feel people should be trained to be real world controllers, but they SHOULD be trained using correct phraseology and procedure, and possess an understanding of why we do the things we do, as a minimum.

There have been  times I've had to tun away visiting controllers because they simply were not up to par to BASIC ATC standards. How do you think the student felt? All that time they thought they knew what they were doing, but it turns out they really didn't. It's a frustrating experience to the student.

That is why I'm so big about making sure the TRC is as correct as can be. I don't want there to be any more students who have be turned down because they didn't know something vital. I also don't want the instructors/TAs to be able to say, "I didn't know". The TRC is the guide. Use it. Now you know.

It does not matter if your a  mentor, instructor, TA, or even VATUSA3, you have got to keep teaching yourself and expanding your knowledge of this. The more you know, the more confident you are, the more successful you'll be, and the more you'll be able to think on your feet when you encounter that unusual situation or problem. I can't even begin to tell you all of what I've learned about ATC, in my time as VATUSA3, and am honestly blessed to have the opportunity.

Jonah Zieske

  • Members
  • 65
    • View Profile
Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 12:04:39 AM »
I agree. I think it was a great learning experience for everyone. Also Sal, thanks for putting this up.  I think it will help some of the new guys out a lot.
ZOA C-1 | ZOA Events Coordinator/Traffic Management Coordinator | ZOA Mentor | www.oakartcc.com

[img]http://online.vatsimindicators.net/1092479/3811.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-sig-image\" /]

Brin Brody

  • Members
  • 6
    • View Profile
    • Anchorage ARTCC
Re: Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 09:17:48 PM »
Hi there!

Great post.  I'll definitely be sending it over to many of my S1 "trainee" friends.  :D

You did reference that you're working in New York.  Many airports, specifically in New York, have climbs as part of their departures...  As I haven't used them many times, I can't generate a "teaching" reply, however I will remind those reading that these climbs do exist, and should generally be included in a clearance, if at all possible. 

Just my note.  Thanks! :D
Brin Brody (BT)
Approach Controller (S3)
Anchorage ARTCC

Matt Bozwood-Davies

  • ZJX Staff
  • 32
    • View Profile
Re: Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2016, 12:33:11 PM »
This post hasnt been written on since Jan 2010, nearly 7 years old. There are bound to be a few discrepancies between then and now
Matt Bozwood-Davies
Virtual Jacksonville ARTCC
Deputy Air Traffic Manager

Brin Brody

  • Members
  • 6
    • View Profile
    • Anchorage ARTCC
Re: Clearance Delivery Tips
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2016, 10:15:30 PM »
Haha!  Just noticed the date.  :P
Brin Brody (BT)
Approach Controller (S3)
Anchorage ARTCC